Wendy Hanson 0:24
Greetings. Everyone. So happy to have you here today. And I am super, super excited with my guests today. So let me tell you a little bit about what today is going to be about. Over the past few years, we've learned so much about the need to lead in a different way and be really inclusive, collaborative and empathetic. folks working remotely or in hybrid environments have really struggled, they they want to be seen, they want to be heard. As leaders, we need to learn how to work closely with our team members to help them grow, and really be able to meet them where they are. Empathy and leading with heart does not come naturally for everyone. The conversation that Roberto and I are going to have points out those that are immersed in tech environments, about how they can be more effective and use what they do so well in tech into the human environment and how we can bring those together. So whether you are a tech person or you're not, there's going to be a lot of lessons here today on empathy, and wonderful stories from Roberto who has really studied this and been this been on both sides of the of the conversation. So let me tell you more about Roberto Jenni Cola, drawing on his experience as a software developer and project manager and his own journey of self development. Roberto coaches leaders, from new managers to C suite executives at Fortune 500 companies and facilitates leadership growth. Underpinning his work is the belief that living up to one's potential as an authentic leader requires the seamless integration of both our analytical skills and emotional intelligence. We have been so fortunate to have Roberto as part of the coaching and facilitation team at BetterManager. So I can easily give him high praise, having worked with him for a while. So Roberto, welcome, I am so delighted to have you here. We're gonna have some fun with our audience today. And they're gonna learn a lot and take things away. So welcome.
Roberto Giannicola 2:35
Thank you, Wendy. and wonderful, and I'm so happy to be here. I really appreciate you having made this in this podcast.
Wendy Hanson 2:42
Well, but like, I can't think of anything better. And I've read your book and loved the lessons. So, you know, you just finished writing this amazing book, you have algorithm, but can you dance, it comes from your work in tech. And as, as I said, when I introduced you those two pieces together, your personal life, your stories and tech. And it's so good for everyone to hear to be more empathetic and collaborative in all our work and all our personal relationships. So what inspired you to write this Roberto? Yeah.
Roberto Giannicola 3:17
So it was like it was during the pandemic that I started writing this, I had plenty of time to reflect. And I was also looking around myself and seeing everything that was happening, especially when people were kind of taken under stress and with the situation that the pandemic brought, and also in my coaching sessions with people in working with, with a lot of clients, seeing and hearing a lot of the same stories and a lot of the issues and challenges that people had, especially when it comes to how to interact with other people or so I was realizing how they had issues and understanding themselves, and how they could change slowly or even easily into understanding better what they can do to be free or to be more at ease and remove the friction that they have in how they interact with people how they work and even for themselves. And I thought that, you know, I want to help with that. I think there's a lot that I can share. And I didn't have to look too far for that. Because there's one thing one day I tell everybody when I start my coaching sessions or when I facilitate programs, I always tell them, Look, there is nothing in here you're not allowed to share or feel uncomfortable sharing because there is nothing I'm coaching that I have not gone through myself. I was that stubborn, hard headed Italian who really messed up or did the wrong thing said the wrong things had the wrong attitude. And there's a lot that I had to work on to change. And so by writing this book I had to do is go back to my past and my stories and realize and think about what was it then that I will was having so many difficulties with, and what did I do to change? What brought me to that to where I am today where it's easier, and I can interact with, with much more ease with people. I tell you, I was the guy who spend hours in the bookstores in the self help aisles, looking at those self development books, sometimes even hiding the cover, because he didn't want people to think like what's wrong with this guy. He's always sitting here. And it's so cheap to buy the books, because probably I had too many to read. But I had a really so I went through the process of really understanding what brought me to where I am today, then bring in the stories and the experiences that I have with my clients and the work that I do. And then writing something that can, I believe, also help them that theory. I wish I had this book, I could go back in time and bring this book to myself when I was in my early 20s and 30s. Because I wouldn't have,
Wendy Hanson 5:58
right? Well, I love that it comes from your pain and your experience. And the difference that it was then how it felt when you were really trying to learn things, and then how confident you are now and what a what was a major, you make such major impact with people. So that you know, there was a lot in between there that happened to get you to where you are now.
Roberto Giannicola 6:22
Definitely yes.
Wendy Hanson 6:24
And you talk about in the book, but really in life and coaching. It's a three step journey. And I think that overview was helpful to get people to understand, because you've do a lot of parallels in this between how tech people work, and how EQ and how this works. And this is another one how how the book is written and how we do this in coaching. What are those three steps? So can you walk us through that a little bit?
Roberto Giannicola 6:50
Yeah, you know, I didn't have to go too far to think about how to separate that. And as I was writing the book, I was thinking about how would I how do I go to a coaching engagement like a six months coaching engagement? How does that start? Often we start by just starting to, to understand the person and who we are ourselves. So in my first part, I always start to think and ask questions for people to understand where they are, and how they understand themselves. What do they know about how they react? What frustrates them? What makes them happy? What makes him angry? What makes him what gives them friction in their work?
730
So self awareness, looking into the mirror and saying, You know what, there's part of me that maybe needs to change here. When do I self sabotage myself? When am I too hard on myself and judging the way I am? And when do I need too much validation, I feel like I'm not good enough. Or maybe I'm too assertive. And so there's a lot of looking into ourselves and understanding that that's the first part first part, then I start talking about, okay, skills, and how we can develop those skills and moving to interacting with other people paying attention to ourselves, how intentions, how our attitude and our tone of voice and so on, how can we be more charismatic, and approaching the conversation in a better way with empathy with heart and connecting with others? And then the last part, just like I do with with my encroaching engagements also is, hey, look, okay, so we have everything we need to work on what we want to develop, how we're going to plan for that. No plans, no outcome.
So I also provide a development plan, a way to set it up, and then how to actually hold yourself accountable to be able to achieve those goals. And I think that's the process that we all go through in any coaching engagement, as you you see for yourself as well, when the so it's just about how can we implement that on our own in our lives as well in our work?
Wendy Hanson 8:51
Yeah. And how can we put up some guideposts for others and learn from experiences that we've had? So people that are listening? What are what are some of the important lessons you want them to take away? You know, that really you believe had been so impactful to you? And I'm sure you learned a lot, writing that book, as much as what you knew before, because when we have to articulate these things, it really shows up big. So what are some of those lessons you want our listeners to take?
Roberto Giannicola 9:22
You know, to me, it starts with self observation. There is one thing that I was doing when I was sitting in those, those bookstores in the south hub, self help IELTS IELTS. I was there because I knew there was something that didn't work for me. I was frustrated, or I was a head of communication or a conversation and it didn't go well. I just didn't sleep at night because there is something in my mind and that doesn't work or that or my emotions are just, I feel it's difficult to handle. So, the lesson for me was, I gotta work on some I gotta change this. I gotta work on myself. I'm gonna put I sat in front of a mirror, and pay attention to what is happening. And not only do I want to pay attention, and maybe anticipate my conversation and prepare for them, but also observe myself after the fact and say, Hmm, this is why I got triggered, this is why the person didn't like the interaction, this is what was missing, and so on. And then learn how you can change that. I think that if you don't take the time to pause, and reflect on how you have presented yourself what you said or not said, and then make the correction, you're missing on a big point here on a big step that can help you in your self development. And then when it comes to because I was a technical mind, I was working in high tech for 15 years, 17 years, developing applications coding, and I was really comfortable behind creating diagrams and so on. And you know, how I had to learn to get out of my expertise somehow, and just thinking that me being brilliant in my work, would be enough to actually interact with people and in and apply myself or converse in social context, somehow, you know, there is there is a lot that I had to let go for that. And often I we create an identity and I know I did, I created an identity with my work, I was great at developing application, I was great at doing all that technical staff. But when it came to interacting people and being really at ease in social context, I call myself I was a cocky coward, cocky in my expertise, a coward in how I have never really worked on myself and been able to work with people and interact with people. And when you start sweating in, in a meeting, just because you feel so uncomfortable, and you feel cornered, and defensive, when people just want to ask questions, I knew there's something not not working here. And so I had to first start by letting go of my view of their head of myself and not be so judgmental of myself and say, okay, you know, this is what it is, this is what you can do, let's look at how you can change it, and move into empathy, and learning to be empathic with myself, which then also helped me more impact be more empathic with other people. So just builds up, right. And so those are the, the key points for me how it started, and how I think other people, even in our work as coaches could benefit.
Wendy Hanson 12:39
Yeah, I love that you start with being empathetic with yourself, you know, because it doesn't do us any good to be leaving a meeting and just make a list of all the things that I really could have done differently, you know, make a list of all the things that you're proud of, you know, we're a very strength based organization. So what are you proud of? And then what would you want to change next time? You know, I love that. And I love that a lot of people don't have the courage, like you're talking about to look in the mirror and make those changes. So that evolution that you went through is really is really so great. And what are the things that you see are essential in your leadership role, when you know, in having more EQ, you know, we put so much emphasis on IQ. Tell me about the EQ piece, and how why that is so important, and especially for people in tech, who who have very high IQ for the most part and look at things a certain way. And I think you have some great stories here that I just relish we're hearing from you.
Roberto Giannicola 13:43
Yeah, absolutely. And I and I connect with these stories. And that's how I have a lot of people in my work because I work with a lot of these brilliant minds. And so there is the whole IQ, we know and there is a lot of research that shows how IQ really gets you in the door and helps you a lot in getting successful. Some research shows like one to 20% success from IQ, but 25 to 45% of success of your success can come from emotional intelligence. And there's a lot of that that talks about that. But then do we really need research to understand that it's pretty simple, right? If you don't take care of your people, if you don't address people in the right way, if you're not empathic and have emotional intelligence, the relationships are not going to work. Daniel Goleman talks about the four core points of emotional intelligence, which is self awareness, self management, social awareness and relationship management. But it's let's just simplify that. I have. I have clients that I work with, and those brilliant minds often come up with great ideas on how to work on their projects. And the story that I have is actually pretty recent. It's just a couple of weeks ago, I was working with a director In high tech in the gaming industry, actually, and we just went through the process of coaching, and then we were to the point of development action plan. And I give to him, give him the template. And then he comes back a couple of weeks later with the plan that he wants to put together to work on himself, and work on his self development. And so he shows it to me and shares and shares it with me on on Zoom, and I see the plan and I see a few bullet points, I want to delegate better, I want to support my team better, and so on. And so I want to see that I'm like India, we need more in here. support my team that I asked, What does that mean to you? How does the team gonna respond? What what happens there? And he tells me, yeah, you know, I just want to make sure that they're okay. And when I Okay, what how do you make sure that they are okay, what is the type of language you're going to use? How you're going to use it? And in says, Well, I have this person is an old person who's been there for a while. So I think I can just tell him, the other one is a little more support, and so on. And I'm like, okay, hold on, let's go into thinking how you work on your projects. When you create a game? What do you do? And he says, You know, I need to make sure that I understand who the users are going to be the game the player years, Are they old? Are they young? Where do they live? What's the culture? What if they click here, or move the mouse there, what's gonna happen, and I need to anticipate all those moves in the game. And I need to share, and I need to make sure that the there's no errors, and I need to, I have to look at the whole project. And I said, and that takes a while, right? There is a big plan you need to put together and you have a lot of people working with you to program. And it goes yeah, that's that's kind of how I do it. And of course, I knew how this was with this, we're going to have the same conversation with other people. And then he says, and then I say, Okay, so let's do the same thing. But now instead of your game, it's the people interactions. And you're gonna start looking at how, when you go into a conversation, even before you go into the conversation, What's your intention? How do you? Are you going to present yourself? What's your energy? What are your biases, judgments, ideas of the person that you're going to talk to, then when you go into the conversation? Who is this person? Are they young or old? Are they an expert, or they just, they just started in company, what's their knowledge, how you're going to tweak and change the tone of voice and the words you're going to use and the language you're going to use to be able to maybe influence them or inspire them or motivate them to do something. And all that happens in the moment. You prepare in advance. Plus, you have in the moment interactions, and then you move them into an outcome, just like your games. And so he looks at me and he goes, Oh, he puts his hands on his head. And he goes,
Oh, I see. And I'm like, Yeah, I said, just the way you work on your projects, and you love it, right? You love the technical part of planning everything. Now you go into that interaction. And it's about people, it's the people system, it's the people game. Isn't that fascinating? You see that whole web and how it connects with everything. And you get to make that big change, you get to change that person, you get to change the outcome, by paying attention to how that what a responsibility. And what fun can it be if you play that game, just the way you create your and so it takes us I can see him take a step back and sit on back in his chair and he goes, okay, okay, okay, okay. I think I'm gonna work on this plan a little more, that that was just like, so it's just moving from that tech mindset into the emotional intelligence side. And he got it. And these people are so brilliant. They're so good at their work, whether it is in the technology or the game, or they're building bridges or flying airplanes, or just so brilliant. Move that and use that expertise and that ability that you have, now you move it into the game of understanding and working with people. It's fun. It's fascinating.
Wendy Hanson 19:28
Oh, I love that. I love that because you take something that's so core to somebody being able to stand back and to plan. And I love your connection with a game and the user experience. And then you take that little even draw your own map as you would be planning a project. And how do we deal with our humans like that because they come to work different every day. Sometimes your tech might stay that way. But the humans don't. So I love that you're able to get people to have that Aha Moment by showing them what they do really well, and then
Roberto Giannicola 20:04
go from the people start from go from the tech stuff to the people stuff, the systems of
Wendy Hanson 20:10
Oh, that's great. And, you know, there's, you're pointing out, there's such strength in that technical mindset and process and applying it to people when they are together, and they want to collaborate more. So talk to that a little bit more, because that's really what you're what you're connecting so many dots here.
Roberto Giannicola 20:31
Yeah. And that's those another specs, I had to reflect even for myself on why do I like to go to the tech and so on? And what do I see my clients? And how was it for me, even when I worked on building an application or building a whole program, there's something that I noticed in people who work in tech, or those who have that logical mindset, tech, finance, tech, biotech, whatever it is, there is a desire to help people in them, I see them often as looking at a problem and say, and starting to think about how, how can we work on that? How can we make it better, and there is an enthusiasm and passion around that, too, there's just that goal, you take three, three hours to do this, we can change it, we can make it I can create a program that with a click of a button, it's gonna make much faster, make it much faster. But how do they do and to understand what did they do to understand what needs to change? Well, they go and let's call it put themselves into other people's shoes. So they understand the people too, they want to understand how the process is they follow a user, they follow a person to see what what they do on a regular basis, so that then they can understand that better and make changes and create a more innovative way of resolving it. And this is the same thing as when you interact with people, or you when you want to delegate a task or you want to support them, you got to put yourself in their shoes, you got to move into that empathy, right, and you gotta really understand what is their side of the world, so that you can interact with them, and not push to them, but interact with them about making it better. And it's the same thing as they do with the programs with the same thing they do as in to build a new bridge, people are going around the road and the river, well, how can we change that? Well, I need to walk that same path so that I understand that maybe a bridge here is greater is better. So it's about really understanding that, then there is also aspects of how they work, when they are on their game or on their tools and working on their programs are very focused, very present. It's just like nothing happens around them. Well, can you bring that into your conversation as well? When you are listening to someone? How can you be present and with the person without having your mind go all over the place? And, and connective and? Well, there is. So there is the presence, the flow of conversation and how you can even use that logic, logical mindset that most people have to resolve problems or emotional ideas or
Wendy Hanson 23:17
build bridges, build bridges, your emotional world.
Roberto Giannicola 23:22
I had a person that I work with that was bright, and he was just like, so good in developing, actually robots. And he would come to me sometimes and say, You know what, I don't think that they like me, I messed up in this program, I think they're going to fire me. And there was a whole list of things that would come into his mind. And so what I had to do and work with him was, hey, look, we're going to go into that logical mindset that you have, we're going to create a flow diagram and analyze your own thoughts and your own emotions here. Okay, so you believe that you're not good enough, and they're going to fire? You put it as yes, no, is it true? And I would have naturally drawn a piece of paper. Well, is it true, they're going to fire you? No, it's not. Okay. So then what else can happen? And I would ask him to ask them to think about the next question. Yes, no. So I would ask him to go through a whole flow of yes and no questions. And often what happened would be that he gets at the end of it in a few minutes and realize that, yeah, no, this is just a bunch of stuff I put in my head, but it's not true. And I would help people do that in the same way that they use that logical mindset in their work to use it in the understanding of themselves and other people in a factual way. And then they resolve it, and so then can move on to something else. Let go that one. So that kind of those are some of the connections that I tried to create with people when it comes to using the logical technical mindset into the emotional side.
Wendy Hanson 24:55
Yeah, and, and I love the logical exercise because it's you, it's hard to do that by yourself. But if somebody else is asking you these questions, like, no, that's not really true, you know, you can really get to the other side of it. And, and, and I think we all do that, you know, we all we all ask those questions, and I love the fact and we all know when you write something down, it gives it more power also. So I love that you had that making a list, it's anybody listening out here, these are things that you can do, you know, as a manager with your team, you know, as you learning and trying to practice some coaching skills. Roberto, so many companies now that we're working with are talking so much about empathy. And you did mention that to like, what, why did walking in someone else's shoes and, and having more empathy? What have you been hearing from people that use you hear, like, is becoming like, that is so big right now, you know, that people? Are they? It's because what we've gone through the last few years? What's your take on that?
Roberto Giannicola 26:01
Yes, and you know, empathy. And first of all, that was something that I had to look into myself on realizing, first of all, I wasn't that empathic. When I was younger, I was more self centered, that cocky coward, right? And I had to really look into what changed for me, how did I become more empathic? I think empathy is something we build, we can just let it go, let it go. And not think of it often is pushed aside, because we have deadlines, because we have, we need to accomplish results we run towards in our accomplishment, or away from something that we fear that oh, I'm not going to be able to. So we will let go of empathy, and we address people and ourselves. Without empathy. We just like push for things. So I had to learn about first of all, how do I become more empathic, and I looked into my past, and there are different aspects that helped me with that. And one was really meditation and staying with myself, I would say that's a small part of it. But then it was about really understanding the other side. So travel experiences, living abroad, volunteering, I volunteered for four lines for smiles, and I was in the hospital, in Ghana, in Africa and in China, and just watching other people what their experiences was. And when even I remember once there was this young woman, Teresa at the end of her surgery, she just woke up from surgery. And the first thing she did was thanking people, she actually was barely sitting up, and she was thinking people, and when I saw her, I would just like, and I was sterilizing people, sterilizing of people sterilizing instruments, in the in the same room. And when I saw that, then I came out and she was just shaking everybody's hand and, and I remember just going back into that sterilizing room and my mask on crying and wearing my mask with tears, because I was so emotionally taken by that. So some of these experiences that made me realize, and kind of create a cracking me and opens up the view of other people and other people's experiences and world. And that doesn't go away, I thought, you know, you go more to more, to more volunteering, and then you become callous somehow, somehow around that not at all, it's actually it increases, once you experienced that. And then of course, emotional pain or anything, anytime you have a challenging time, you just kind of are able to see much more other people when you remember your own dilemmas and what you went through. And then of course, there's a lot of about curiosity and really listening to others, and understanding how other people's experiences like. So they also growth for me to become more empathic. And then when I think about today, in our world, and how I interact with people, also, what I see from my clients, there's a lot that comes to the empathy is to really understand the other side to sense the other side. And being okay, with how uncomfortable sometimes it can be to sense and realize that. And so when I talk about empathy with people, and really try to understand how you can apply that at work, I always tell them, Look, I can show you a lot of skills, I can tell you how to delegate, I can tell you how to communicate how to speak and whatever it is, but I think coach, and those are great people skills, soft skills, but we're going to add a layer to that we're going to augment that communication with empathy. And that means often you're going to pause before you go into the conversation. You're going to create a moment of trying to see and sense the other person, what is happening with them. And if you don't know, to actually take the time to ask those questions. What is happening with you? How are things? What are you afraid of what Are you enthusiastic about and really seeing the other person. And when they when you make that person feel seen, everything changes, everything changes in the way you're going to give them work or receive work or they are open up to you and they interact better the relationship changes. Even if they don't have time, sometimes they will be like, You know what, because of how you really see my world, I'm going to take on this project anyway, because I like you. And because you care for me. And that changes everything. And it's beautiful. You know, when they are always say, and this is what I realized, in my coaching sessions, sometimes I have people who start the coaching sessions with me, and I'm like, I don't know, this guy's just as is a tough one, I'm not sure I would like to meet him in a bar, and so on.
But through the sessions, as they open up, as the trust is built, as I am being empathic, and really seeing their side, I call it removing the mud around people, they are removing those layers of mud that they are hiding behind. And with all the clients that I've worked so far, with all the hundreds of coaching sessions I've read, there is never been a time where I haven't not found at the end behind that mud, a beautiful heart. And if you start your interactions with people at work or outside of work, you start your interactions with people from the heart. And realizing that they are just beautiful humans, your tone changes your conversation changes your changes your attitude and your the way you address them changes automatically. But we need to pause and take the time to see the heart. And that's what I think is often missing. Or we need to spend more time trying to put it into our lives and into our interactions.
Wendy Hanson 31:59
And to understand and I love how you use the word sense. You need to sense somebody. It's not, you know, you, you need to listen. But there's something about sensing somebody, you've got to look behind everything. And what do you feel and be curious? And yeah, that's just beautiful. Because if you know, when people feel heard, they open up, and they feel that they're respected. And if God if we could all take that one lesson way, what a difference it would make.
Roberto Giannicola 32:33
Look, I tell people, sometimes no matter where you are, and who you talk to, can be at the bar or can be in the store and ask a question about them. Just be interested. And watch how they love talking about themselves. You make them feel seen you make them feel heard. The world opens up.
Wendy Hanson 32:52
Right? Right. Yes. And too much we start at the other end. Let me tell you about me. Tell you what I can do. So does it work? Oh, yes. And as you point out, it works in business relationships, personal relationships, anything, you know, it's the same kind of people. So
Roberto Giannicola 33:13
there is a book from Olivia Fox Cobain, the Charisma Myth, and she talks about charisma. And who are these people who are so charismatic and what they do? And she comes down to one of the key elements, which is the charismatic people, people just ask a lot of question and listen well, because they make the other person feel important. So your view label
Wendy Hanson 33:33
that charisma, right? Yeah. Yeah. So the last question, as we wind up, you know, I'm reflecting because at BetterManager, we help managers to be better at their roles and to learn new skills and take action. So one of the things that we love about this podcast is when we can hear from people like you and learn, like, what are some of the action steps that you would be really proud if listeners were taking, and this will be up on LinkedIn, so people can even write in there and say, This is what I took action on. Roberto, I would love if they would do that. Well, what are some of those clear steps so that as they're taking this away, they're gonna do something?
Roberto Giannicola 34:16
Yeah. So great point. And three key steps that I would often share with people is look at yourself and think about what are the fundamental pain points you're currently experiencing? Where is their friction? And realizing that maybe even thinking even more observing yourself on how would you what would you want to do to remove that friction to be free or to be more at ease in conversations and interaction with people? And then if you don't, so this is a part of what you do for yourself as well. But then the other part is also what are people telling you about areas in which you need to improve? What are the common Things that people notice about you that maybe Hey, you know, you might want to look into a little more yourself and make changes. And then if you still find bookstores, you can go walk into those aisles. And like, sit in there and find a book. Otherwise, there's, there's always the online bookstores. And then also, think about what you would want it to be like when you're feeling more at ease in social context. When you're able to influence others with confidence and with heart and empathy. What does that feel like for you? And how can you use even the mindset that you have to get to that, and apply it in there? So it's three simple steps. I always tell people in my in my sessions and end of coaching engagements and development plans, don't put more than three, because it's going to be overwhelming. Just start with something and then get there. But create a plan for yourself, and start looking into how you can change the things that maybe are causing problems right now. And could be better. And where do you want
Wendy Hanson 36:03
to be happier? And the people that you interact and interface with will be happy? Absolutely. Yeah, there's no losing in any of that. When you
Roberto Giannicola 36:12
change everything changes around you. That's right. Oh, Roberto,
Wendy Hanson 36:15
this has been wonderful to learn from you and hear your stories. And please tell people about you know, review about your book by how they get it and and what's the best way for people to reach out and we'll put some of this in the show notes.
Roberto Giannicola 36:30
Yes, thank you, Wendy. It's been such a pleasure. You can find most of my information, either the book is on Amazon, but you can find me on LinkedIn as well. Just my name not that many Roberto Janica is out there. Otherwise, my website, it's my last name.com So that journey color.com
Wendy Hanson 36:48
Would you spell Jen Nicola.
Roberto Giannicola 36:52
GIANNICO la. That's my last name.
Wendy Hanson 36:58
Right. And, and the name of the book again?
Roberto Giannicola 37:03
You've got algorithm, but can you dance, learn how to read with heart and empathy.
Wendy Hanson 37:09
Great, great. Well, I hope people take advantage of, of the journey that you have been on and the lessons that you share. This will make a difference.
Roberto Giannicola 37:19
Thank you, Wendy.
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