Wendy Hanson 0:24
Welcome, everybody. It's so wonderful to have you here. We're going to discuss such an important topic today. As the world struggles with the great resignation, we need to understand people's motivation and think about hiring and retention strategies. The only way to develop new ways of thinking about this is to bring on an expert in the field. And so knowing we had to solve this problem, I brought on Julie Winkle Galloni. Hope I didn't kill your name has been on this. And Julie's been on this podcast before. I feel like she's really in our BetterManager family. Because we have we have really taken Julie's work to heart and have integrated into our career development programs. So now she's back again, because she has a new book and has done more research to help us redefine career development, a foundational need in today's workplace. So Julia is a champion for workplace growth and development, and helps executives and leaders optimize talent and potential within their organizations. One of the Inc Magazine's Top 100 speakers, she's the author of promotions are so yesterday, redefine career development, help employees thrive, and co author of the international bestseller, help them grow or watch them go career conversations, organizations need and employees want. And that has been translated into seven languages. I know it is something that we use all the time. And I don't know how many times I've told people that this is the book you need, if you're working on career development in your company. Julie is a regular columnist for training industry, magazine, and smartbrief and contributes articles on leadership, career development and workplace trends to numerous in publications, including the economist, and you can keep up with her through her blog, LinkedIn and Twitter, which will give you some information on that at the end where to find Julie because that's important. So Julie, welcome. I am so delighted to have you on you bring such wisdom and research to us so that we can think about this important topic.
Julie Winkle Giulioni 2:41
Thank you, Wendy, for the gracious introduction and the ability to come back. It's been a couple of years since we've done this. So it is a joy to be with you.
Wendy Hanson 2:50
Oh, thank you. Thank you. And, you know, as I said, help them grow watch them go has been such an inspiration to BetterManager. It's part of our career development program, we use all your concepts. So referring to the title of your new book, wire promotion. So yesterday, what is that all about? Like? How did you go from the first one to this one?
Julie Winkle Giulioni 3:13
Yeah, the end is a great way to kind of start the conversation because help them grow has just been it's been like one of my children over the last 10 years. And it's been such a gratifying experience to be able to work with leaders and managers and organizations to really help managers rethink what a career conversation can be like that it doesn't have to be this big, heavy, long sort of protracted experience that we can help people grow in in ways that are much easier, shorter conversations layered over time, really turning career development into a relationship. And so we've had so much fun with that content, and have seen managers and leaders really flourish and find their voice in this new kind of a conversation. Even so, what managers what I hear so frequently from folks is, this is great, I'm having some really great conversations, but I still don't know what to do when because you know, after all my employees want that promotion. And there are only so many of those. And so I still despite the good conversation. I still am in a bit of a pickle here in terms of how to advance that. And what I was finding was my conversations with employees and managers alike about what career really means to them. What was important to them what they were interested in. Those conversations didn't square with the managers expect assumption that everybody wanted that promotion. And so I started listening very carefully to some field research just in terms of what is it people are looking for? What do they want? What does career look like today. And the themes, the patterns quickly emerged. And they identified seven alternatives to that classic climb up the corporate ladder, that, again, managers just kind of default to that we think that's what everybody wants. But my conversations actually surfaced seven other dimensions that are equally more important in some cases than that climb. And that are completely within the control of managers and employees, unlike the promotions are. And so this new book digs into that what we refer to as the multi dimensional career framework and those alternatives to the promotion as a way to help today's employee, not just grow, but really thrive within their careers.
Wendy Hanson 6:07
Oh, that's so wonderful, because we learned so much from your first book about, you don't have this career development conversation once a year, which many of the companies that we were working with, that was the mode of operation, and that's not good, it's like, fitted in all the time and have that on a regular basis. And we've seen that that has made a big difference when people take that on. So now going to that next level. And we also always use your metaphor, it's a climbing wall, it's not a ladder, when you're looking at careers, and you can look be in place and be still growing and learning. But that promotion still comes up all the time. So I'm so glad that you are going to help us to weed through that. So what are some of the risks and the challenges that are associated with defining careers and career development? When you look at promotions and positions? What gets in the way there, Julie?
Julie Winkle Giulioni 7:03
Well, it's math, it really boils down to the math of it, doesn't it? Because there are simply not enough promotions to give to everyone who wants to grow. Organizations are pyramid. So even the idea of a ladder, that was never a great metaphor, because there wasn't an even flow up, it gets more rarefied and there are fewer opportunities, the further up you go. And so the challenge that we have is perpetuating that as sort of the default definition creates dissatisfaction. And while the great resignation is being fueled by a lot of different factors, development is definitely among them. I mean, we know from the research, that 94% of employees would stay longer in an organization, if they felt like there was an investment being made in their development. A stat that just stuns me is that employees who don't perceive growth are 7.9 times more eager to leave, even if they like their job. Be growth is important. And people want to feel like they have an opportunity to develop within the organization that they're in, given today's talent marketplace, when they don't see that opportunity. They've got options.
Wendy Hanson 8:34
And there's so many people that we all can't even understand where everybody is going, you know, they're leaving jobs and, and some of them, you know, tech employees and things can go out and find another job in a day, you know, if you're an engineer. So we really need to look at this. And there's a lot to learn. And I love that you you actually wrote people should sign up for your newsletter because you've worked wrote a great blog post about not only is it COVID That has a that has impacted us, but it really is the great resignation and all that where we're gonna have take a long time to recover from.
Julie Winkle Giulioni 9:10
It's true, I think for us as individuals, I think we're all still reeling from the effects of of this pandemic and the the implications for our lives over the last couple of years. Organizations are going to be building that for some time. But individual careers really are taking very different trajectories. When you look at what people are looking for, after two years of this kind of on again off again, pause working from home, maybe not having the commute seeing your kids every day seeing them grow up. Folks are looking at their relationship with work differently. They're wanting a different relationship with work, and development plays a really key role in all of that.
Wendy Hanson 10:00
And companies that have been empathetic and flexible in terms of, you know, people that are taking care of kids at home, that's a really important piece. So all that fits in together that support and, and just the flexibility piece that we need to make sure that we provide to people because if we don't provide it to people, we're going to lose them.
Julie Winkle Giulioni 10:21
I get well said, Wendy, you're right. organizations that have taken care of their employees during this time, I believe are going to be well rewarded, both in terms of the the employees in the loyalty that they'll be willing to extend. But also customers feel it too. When you go into an establishment, you can tell which of those businesses are really wrapping their arms around their employees, keeping them safe taking care of their needs, and and those that aren't
Wendy Hanson 10:52
doing that. Yeah. When we focus less on productivity and focus more on engagement, and we will get productivity, because people will feel like this is this is a team I want to play with. And and then you'll get the productivity for those that are pushing productivity first in the career and monitoring. I remember in the very beginning, people are going were saying, How do I know if they're remote if they're working, they may not be working at all. And what we've learned is that we're working much harder and much longer. Have you found that in your research do?
Julie Winkle Giulioni 11:27
Oh, no, I haven't researched that. But I've certainly seen the studies that others have done and the worries that managers had about people slacking off and lollygagging around and eating, you know, bond bonds all day, it you know, it played out quite the opposite. And we've got now you know, this workforce, and that, in many cases is really burned out stressed out and anxious because of the extent to which they have leaned into the work that needed to be done.
Wendy Hanson 11:55
Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, so we, this is a whole new world that we're going into, and it's probably going to continue for quite a while as we revamp. So I love that you always come up with good models that help us to think things through. So tell me about the multi dimensional Career Development Framework? Like how is that gonna help us with this issue.
Julie Winkle Giulioni 12:20
So this framework is at the the heart of the new book promotions are so yesterday. And as I mentioned, I'd done the field research through conversations with people and identified seven alternative dimensions ways people could grow that they said they were interested in growing in, beyond the climb. And yet, so I knew was a viable model, it came from those real people. But I thought when it comes right down to it, what's really going to be most important, most interesting to people at any given time. So we did a validation study with over 700, folks. And we just took our eight dimensions, and let me just go through them really fast. Their contribution, competence, connection, confidence, challenge, contentment, choice, and then climb it and gratefully it was easy to fit them all into CS for, for an easy way to remember it. So we took these statement, we took these dimensions to a very face value statement and said rank order these, what's most interesting to you right now what's least interesting, what's in the middle, just rank them. And the results were absolutely stunning in aggregate across ages. contribution and competence. were number one and two. Yeah. And then we had, you know, connection, Confidence Challenge, contentment choice, in aggregate climb, that, you know, growth through promotions, was dead last. And so as I as I mentioned, when we first started talking the assumptions that so many managers have, about what people want, don't square with the reality of what people want. And so in many cases, in many organizations, these conversations aren't moving forward because of that misconception. And so the research the model is hopeful and helpful information for managers who are sort of holding back and wondering, oh gosh, I don't want to stir things up or set expectations I can't deliver on the beauty of contribution of competence of connection of all of those is that is absolutely in the manager and the employees wheelhouse. They control that they can make choices to get To find ways to grow those dimensions in a way that it just don't have that kind of power when it comes to promotions and positions.
Wendy Hanson 15:09
Yeah. And I think that has also kept people from having any talk as you're kind of alluding to about a career, because they're like, oh, I don't want to start this conversation, because they're going to ask me for a promotion, and I can't control that. So you're opening the door to conversations that are really important, and you'll be able to fulfill them because it's in your control. I love
Julie Winkle Giulioni 15:33
Absolutely. And the flip side of that Wendy is, a lot of employees may have been reluctant to wade into the career conversation as well, because they're happy where they are. They don't want to move anywhere. They like what they're doing. But they also know they want to keep growing, without having to go anywhere. And so what this model I think offers is some language, you know, if we didn't have the words to talk about these different avenues, these different dimensions. And so when we thought about a career conversation, we just went to that, you know, promotion, I don't want to do that. So let's not, let's not have that conversation. So it opens up a much broader conversation.
Wendy Hanson 16:20
Yeah, we've been talking about this a lot of BetterManager. Because as we work with individual contributors, there's always two paths you can take as an individual contributor, because everybody looks like if you're going to get promoted, you got to be a manager. And we all know that some people don't want to be people, managers, and it's not their skill set. So we have to make sure that even from an individual contributor standpoint, you can grow to learn to be on a manager path, because that's what you want to do, and you have talents in that area. Or you can grow from the seat where you're sitting in. And a lot of engineers are like that tech people, they don't really want to work with people all the time. But they shouldn't be stuck on the bottom just because of that. And this has been something I remember having conversations about this 20 years ago with tech teams, like how do we how do we really reward people if they don't want to be a manager? And so have you? I'm sure you've come across that a lot too.
Julie Winkle Giulioni 17:19
Oh, for sure. Yeah. And you look at so many people who find themselves in the management and leadership ranks, not so many i That sound judgmental, I don't mean it that way. Some people pursue those roles, because that's the only way they think they can grow. And to your point, they don't have a legitimate interest in what's involved. And they don't even know in some cases, what they're getting themselves into. When I talk to people who say, you know, want to move into management. I try to unpack it and say, Alright, what is it about that role? You're looking forward to? You know, which skills and and abilities do you look forward to doing? What kinds of problems? Many people just look at me sort of deer in the headlights? Because they haven't thought about it? From that standpoint, they've just kind of been conditioned to think, well, it's the next rung on the ladder, what else am I going to do? And so good for you to be consulting with organizations and helping them think about sure that is a track for some people. But again, it's mathematically attract for fewer and fewer people as you move up. And so what do we do with these massive numbers of people who may not have an interest in being a manager, Pope, we really do want to keep growing. So kudos to you for helping to sort that out.
Wendy Hanson 18:44
Now, while we're trying, and I do love that perspective, that you know, wherever you are, you can really, I always use the metaphor of a bus. Because when I worked at Google, Tim Armstrong was amazing. And he said, anybody can lead from any seat on the bus. So we often talk about that, like you can lead from where you are, as an individual contributor, as an engineer, you may need some certain skills that you maybe aren't confident in your executive presence or doing presentations, but you have a great way to contribute to an organization from any seat on the bus.
Julie Winkle Giulioni 19:20
Oh, that is so true. And I remember Kelly, it's been at 25 or 30 years ago that Jack Sanger and Kathleen Herson wrote everyone a leader that spoke to exactly that takes a while for some of those, those concepts to to sink in. And as long as we're doing metaphors, I think the other metaphor that comes to my mind around career development is is related to travel related. When you think about planning a trip, you know, you think about those highlights. You know, whether it's the the pyramids or the Eiffel Tower, whatever it is, those landmarks. And with careers, it's the same way, you know, we sort of think about the landmarks as those positions as promotions. But when I'm traveling, sure the landmarks are in the the photo album and everything, but it's that time in between, it's the walk down, the chandeliers say, it's the swim and the snow day, it's, you know, those small moments in that liminal space in between where the richness light lives. The same with our careers, the development lies in that space in between all of those moves, and titles and, and structural things, day in and day out, doing the work, getting the feedback, having relationships, learning within through others stepping up to challenges, that's where the development is happening, right?
Wendy Hanson 20:51
I don't know whose quote this is, but it reminds me of your travel metaphor. It's not about the destination, it's about the journey. Yeah. And that really, is what you're pointing out, which is, you know, don't just worry about running over to the Eiffel Tower, you know, take a nice long path through and learn things along the way and eat some croissants, Yes, much better than just trying to arrive there and then go to the next place. Absolutely.
Julie Winkle Giulioni 21:18
And maybe along the way, you're going to decide that you're not even interested in seeing the Eiffel Tower, you've seen it from afar, that's fine, let's go down and see Notre Dame instead, or whatever it might be. Because that's the other thing that we probably should talk about is the world of work is changing so fast, this idea of setting our sights on one particular role. And then working feverishly to get to that, you know, you've seen that research from the Institute for the Future of Work, 85% of the jobs we'll be doing in 2030 don't exist. And so linking our future and our success, and using a role as a measuring stick of all of that is a little flawed.
Wendy Hanson 22:05
Yeah. Oh, that's so true. And, and we, we need to keep up with where those changes are going and build the skills that we'll need for that next century of work that we're going to be doing, and just stay open. Yeah, and it's, it's not something that's stuck in the ground anymore. You know, we just have to be flexible thinkers, strategic thinkers, we always use that metaphor of the dance floor and the balcony, the dance floors, when you're in the middle of all the work in the weed, and you go up on the balcony, and you can see things strategically, you need to keep going up to the balcony. And looking at what's happening. What's the environment around here? What do we need to, to look at? And what do I need to do to grow as a manager and leader in this environment? No, I love that metaphor. Yeah, it's one of our favorites. Yes. And you
Julie Winkle Giulioni 22:57
really do need to get out on that balcony to have that longer horizon, that broader perspective to be able to, to look around the corners and ready ourselves, because you don't know what's coming. But to have a flexible plan for future proofing ourselves skilling up and staying, staying relevant.
Wendy Hanson 23:22
And, Julie, how do you handle those people who still want to climb? You know, they're going to hear your research, they're going to read the work, they're like, oh, no, I still think I need to climb a ladder, I still need to go up, I still want to get promoted. Tell us a little bit about your wisdom on that. Well,
Julie Winkle Giulioni 23:38
they are there. And it's legitimate in all of our careers, there are probably times when that is the dimension that's most appropriate. And so, you know, I wish I had had a billboard rather than just a book cover because the the title could have been promotions or so yesterday as the only way of thinking about how career development operates or something like that, but publisher would have never gone for that. But so so it is appropriate, it's going to be with us. I mean, it just that's the case. The challenge with the climb is that it's out of the control of managers and supervisors. And so what the other dimensions offer is a way forward, even when you can't achieve that one dimension. So if someone is really looking forward to that, you know, rise up into management, understanding what some of their other dimensions of interests are, and be able to say, okay, for you to be effective, when as an if that position opens up. It's going to be really important that you have a strong network and the ability to make solid relationships. And I've noticed that connection is really an interest of yours. Alright, so what can we be doing right now? That starts To lay that foundation builds your community, maybe its competence, she needs more influence skills to be able to navigate at that next level. But when we start to understand because people aren't going to be interested in just one thing, it's, you know, sort of a continuum. What else are they interested in developing, we can do use those lean into those, find ways that we can engineer the experiences that make that happen, that help people grow in the moment, prepare for the future, but also maintain that motivation, you know, they're not just sitting on their hands waiting for that next role to open up, they're actively engaged in their development toward it.
Wendy Hanson 25:38
Right? It reminds me of one of the tools that we use is strengths finders, and you're talking about things that, like if somebody really is loves connection, that's really a strength of theirs. And now that the world is going to open up soon, that we'll be able to go out to a networking event again, you wouldn't, you wouldn't send somebody out that really just, they wanted to be learning more, they wanted to be in the competency area, but somebody that really wants to connect, and that will light up them and light up the other people, and they'll bring it back to the organization. So knowing what things there are there that we can do something about, I love that.
Julie Winkle Giulioni 26:18
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, the, the twist on the book, and these dimensions is, these are things that are going to interest people that are interesting ways for them to grow. So it goes even a step beyond engagement. So when it comes to contribution, yeah, I mean, I'm going to be a lot more engaged if I'm stepping up and being of service and making a difference. But let's make sure it's reciprocal. As I'm giving more, what am I getting in terms of new skills, new abilities, my expanded network, whatever it might be. And so what the book does for each of the dimensions, we've got a chapter that digs into, okay, if you've got employees who's interested in this? How can you help them grow through that interest. So it becomes a real win win for the organization as well as the employee?
Wendy Hanson 27:11
That's great. I, I think that perspective is really going to help people as they look at this going forward, because we all like to have something that we can hang on to that we can say, these are things we should discuss in our one on one meetings with folks, you know, we should look at those dimensions and say, which one of those are you really most interested in? So that, and I love that the way that you stated that that's within a manager's control? You know, we all can only control what we can control. So take something that you're going to be able to make progress on and, and it will be a great retention strategy.
Julie Winkle Giulioni 27:46
Yes. Oh, I love that. It's, you're right. When it comes to promotions positions, we find ourselves saying no, and these other dimensions can be big yeses
Wendy Hanson 27:56
would have? No,
Julie Winkle Giulioni 28:00
right. In the book, there's a self assessment, we also have this online self assessment, too. So a manager who really wants to have a meaty conversation, can ask their folks go do the assessment, you know, get the report, think about it. They're reflection questions there for them to consider. And then they have a really good basis for having a conversation with someone because they know Okay, here are their interests. Here's what's less interesting to them, and they can begin to prioritize. And this is all a moment in time, right? Because what I'm interested in today could be really different than what I'm going to be interested in in two months. And that so it kind of goes back to what we were talking about before those layer conversations, you gotta keep talking,
Wendy Hanson 28:40
you keep talking because yeah, are when we can have new inputs into what's happening and what's possible, then we can change our mind of, well, this sounds interesting, and I never knew this existed. Wow, I think I'm going to learn more about that.
Julie Winkle Giulioni 28:56
Yeah. And when managers get that constant input, they have a more full bodied current picture of who that employee is, because they're changing every day.
Wendy Hanson 29:07
Right? And I love the assessment. We're going to look at that too, to see your assessments and say, That's a good tool to be able to use because we all need something to bounce off of, you know, so having something simple like that, to really get people thinking about it is a wonderful thing. Yeah. Could be part of a conversation like how to work with me, which is if you're a new manager, and then you have a new team member, you both share what you're this is how I work. This is about my family. This is about the best time to reach me. This is about the best way to give me feedback, and then have an assessment like that in there. That will be a wonderful way for people to continue a deeper conversation about oh,
Julie Winkle Giulioni 29:53
Wendy, that's brilliant. I love that idea to really understand what's most interesting to someone around how they to grow, the other way to use it is with a team where trust exists, you know, you have to have a good rapport already, to have the whole team do it, and share with each other where their interests lie. Because, you know, we've for the longest time thought of career development as this exclusive relationship between the manager and the employee, when the truth is, if we can expand that relationship to include peers and collaborators, and consultants and suppliers and customers, I mean, suddenly, then you've got a real community around you that that can provide the support the accountability and whatnot that's required for ongoing growth.
Wendy Hanson 30:42
Yeah. And when you have that conversation with team members, you have these aha experiences of, oh, I never thought of it that way. You know, when we think, in my experience, when we think of ourselves, and we're kind of in our own little bubble, you know, are the things that we come up with are so much more limited than if I hear somebody else talking and say, Wow, I never thought of that. So I love that a team might be able to do that together, and lift to climb. Yes. Lift I love that. Yes, that's great. Oh, well, I am very excited that you are again, changing the world in the face of career development by giving us things to think about and learn and, and, and help managers with another tool during this challenging time. For your next book, we'll be we'll be talking in a couple of years, hopefully, you'll take a little rest after this one. But you're always welcome anytime on the podcast when you have anything new to share, because I think it's always so pragmatic. You know, it's something that we can do something with. And it's based on the research that you've done, and really talking about when when you're a specialist in one area, you can really go deep and so many managers need to be a specialist in so many things. They need somebody who's a specialist in careers, like you are to be able to infuse them with some new information.
Julie Winkle Giulioni 32:06
You thank you, you know, what a fan I am of you and your work. Just it's remarkable. So I would love to come back anytime you'll have me.
Wendy Hanson 32:15
Okay. Yes, yes. Well, we'll we'll make that happen. Go? Well, I want to see what results have come from the book, the wonderful stories that you hear when the books out there for maybe, you know, three, four months? What are people saying? And what are you learning? Now? That would be a very interesting conversation,
Julie Winkle Giulioni 32:31
I would love it, I will look forward to it. So I know that
Wendy Hanson 32:35
the people that are listening now are saying, Wow, how do I learn more about Julie and finding out all this information? What's the best way for them to reach out and we'll also have this in the show notes. So when people listen to the podcast, they'll be able to see this down, but let our listeners know who are all over the world. And I'm sure this is a global problem.
Julie Winkle Giulioni 32:57
Super, it is unfortunately a global problem. Yes, indeed. So probably the best way to reach out is through my website, which is Julie Winkle giuliani.com. So it'll be helpful that it's in the show notes, because it's a lot of vowels in there. And, and so there's information about the book, you can download a sample chapter and get a little bit of a preview. And there's also a link to that free self assessment as well, if anybody wants to take it to learn more about the multi dimensional career framework, and what's most interesting to them right now.
Wendy Hanson 33:30
Yeah, well, great. Well, this is this is all that I expected it would be because I know about your wisdom and how you make things simple to be able to share it so that people can really get a grasp on it and do something with it. So thank you for sharing that today. And I hope everybody's gonna leave this call thinking, What should I do differently now? Like, what what did I take from this? Because we always do that in coaching, we ask, what's your next action? What are you taking away? So I'm really challenging all the listeners of this podcast now to think about that, what am I going to do? What's the next action may have been a nice Listen, but what am I going to do to change things and make things better for my team, my colleagues, myself. So thank you all so much for listening. And thank you, Julie, for your wisdom. And we look forward to seeing you again in you know, maybe six months. We'll put it on the calendar now. So that we know. Thank you, Andy, have a great day, everybody go out and make a difference in the world. It's really important right now. And so we're giving you all the tools you need on this podcast when we talk to so many experts in fields so take care of yourself and have a wonderful day.